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Post by DemonDog on Nov 15, 2014 6:19:33 GMT -5
I was wondering, is there any difference between the original Dalmatian breefiles for D4 and D5? If you have posed your Dalis in D5, would you please post their show poses here? I am trying to figure out why there is a very small difference in the amount of heel showing when I pose my Dalis in D5 (who are perfectly aligned I believe) as opposed to a lot of other people's OB Dali poses. I was thinking that MAYBE it had something to do with the fact that the majority of people now use P4 and I use P5. Just a guess. I know the difference is down to a handful of pixels, but as competitive as the show ring is, it makes a big difference. I'd like to figure out why this is happening so I can improve my poses. Thank you so much for your time and help!!! Here are my poses for Tucker (purebred OB Dali, 2 Generations) and his daughter, Winter (purebred OB Dali, 7 Generations). Both were posed in Dogz 5. Heart nosed poses AND triangle nosed poses are both intentionally provided because of the difference in judge preference. Tucker "Triangle Nose" "Heart Nose" Winter "Triangle Nose" "Heart Nose" EDIT: Here are some examples of other people's Dali poses that have beautifully aligned legs. Please note the difference in the amount of heel showing behind the front paws as opposed to my poses.THIS DOG BELONGS TO JAX Dog's Name: "Chantell""Heart Nose" THIS DOG BELONGS TO HARUKA Dog's Name: "Maggie""Triangle Nose" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Also, I have concluded that this has nothing to do with breathing. It is not just one Dali either. All of my Dalis pose this way. Here are MANY different perfectly aligned poses I took of Tucker to show that it is not his breathing causing the heel issue. Again, please note, two different "types" of poses have been provided (Heart Nose vs Triangle Nose) because of the difference in judge preference.Heart Shaped Nose Poses 1- 2- 3- 4- 5- 6- 7- Triangle Shaped Nose Poses 1- 2- 3- 4- 5- 6- 7- 8- 9-
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Post by jax on Nov 16, 2014 13:15:32 GMT -5
Have you ever spelled a word and looked at it thinking something was "off" and the more you look, the more you convince yourself it's not spelled right? Then you look it up and realize it is spelled correctly, but still looks "wrong"? I hope it's not only me!
I think this is one of those cases. I opened Chantell's pose into photoshop, changed the background colour, and then copied Tucker and Winter's poses and overlayed them. I played around with the transparency and it is then that you really notice they're in almost the exact same position. Winters pose over Chantells. ETA: I had a closer look at the heel, and I noticed that the ankle ball seems to be a pixel off of Chantells. Hmm... interesting. I'll add Chantell into P5 and try and get her to pose. i'll be back soon with that pose. ETA AGAIN: Okay, so I had to re-train Chantell to pose and it took HOURS. She kept jumping out of position or startling resulting in this: or this: and this: and my personal fav... this: But perseverance paid off and I finally grabbed this shot: And there it is... that ankle. It seems you are right! The ankles in P5 do not line up the same as in P4. Interesting indeed!
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Post by DemonDog on Nov 17, 2014 7:43:37 GMT -5
OMG, hahahaha!!!!!!!! Oh the joys of posing dogz Thank you SO much Jax for taking the time to investigate this for me! You are amazing! I know it is a VERY small difference, but I am glad I was not just hallucinating It's a relief to know I'm not doing anything wrong when posing my Dals! It is very interesting that there is a difference though. I do think that it effects P5 Dals in the show ring. If I was judging a show and Chantell's two poses were entered, without this knowledge, I would place the one in P4 above the one in P5 because of the heel. I guess the only thing I can really do is get P4 and pose all my future OBs there instead. Still, it kind of makes you wonder...how many differences are there with other breeds. Thanks again Jax!!!!!!!
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Post by shebaatje on Nov 17, 2014 7:57:48 GMT -5
I guess the only thing I can really do is get P4 and pose all my future OBs there instead. You really shouldn't have to though, right? There are members on here who only ever use P5 and that would mean they would always be at a disadvantage if their Dali poses were to be judged along side P4 Dali poses. Maybe a little side note under the show entry that the pet was posed in P5 would be enough?=) I didn't know about this before either and I've been a judge for some years now...we could always direct people to this thread or add it to an already excisting pose guide?
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Post by DemonDog on Nov 17, 2014 8:04:50 GMT -5
You are right. It is going to be hard to educate judges, but we can try I messaged Cel on TPA and asked her if she would add this information to her posing guide (I think it's probably one of the best OB posing guides around that still has working images). Maybe a copy of the posing guide should be posted here and a couple other show forums at well. I'll ask her if she's ok with that. I will start including a note with all of my future OB Dali entries with a link to this thread. Maybe that will also help spread the word
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Post by Valerie on Nov 23, 2014 15:26:01 GMT -5
Very interesting.... Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Ataraxia on Nov 25, 2014 2:02:27 GMT -5
Wow. It took me a long time to realize what you guys were talking about. I kept looking at the back heels but if I'm not mistaken this is about the space right behind the front paws? I'm not judging a show here but what a minuscule difference! Granted, I can see how it would affect placing. I don't think it would be especially difficult for judges to account for but as it looks like you're the first person ever to notice the inconsistency I don't know how much weight it will hold ^^; Personally, I would just pose my petz in P4.
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Post by DemonDog on Nov 25, 2014 12:40:43 GMT -5
it looks like you're the first person ever to notice the inconsistency I don't know how much weight it will hold ^^; Personally, I would just pose my petz in P4. I agree with shebaatje , it is not fair to people who use Petz 5 to just allow P5 show dogs to be at a disadvantage. I'm not sure what you mean by "how much weight it will hold"? It should hold plenty of weight as Jax and I have both proved that this is a real issue, and we are both known, respected members of the Petz Show community. In addition, the Admins of several of the forums I show at have volunteered to add this as part of their posing guides. When showing OB Dali's these days, the competition is VERY high, especially at TPA (The Petz Association). It is VERY common to see *several* absolutely perfect Dali poses in one show. In 10 years of showing Petz, I've never seen a pose perfected like the OB Dali pose has been. It has been perfected to the pixel. And a lot of the time, when judges are in the situation where they have several perfect poses (which, mind you, is often), they will look for the tiniest things possible to help them make their judging choices. If they do not know about the ankle alignment in D5 Dali's being different, they may very well chuck the D5 pose out altogether because more of the front heel is showing. Yes, it is a very small difference. But for those who have spent a decent amount of time showing and judging the OB Dali (or OBs in general), they know that the smallest amount of pixels in today's competition could be the difference between BIS and not placing at all. And to answer your question, if you study the poses closely (as if you were a judge trying to place the dogs), you will notice that this affects not only the amount showing of the left front heel, but also the amount of the left rear leg showing. If it is still hard for you to see the difference, save both of Chantell's poses, then compare them side by side or flip back and forth between the images. It isn't the most obvious thing to spot, which is probably why it has been overlooked for so long (as well as the fact that few people now use P5), but I still stick with my opinion that this small little difference makes a big impact when showing P5 dogs with Dali legs. When I have time, I plan to do a more in depth look into this using both P4 and P5 and a Dali of every color. If anyone doubts the truth of these statements, they can, of course, do the experiment for themselves using both P4 and P5. ^^
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Post by Kristina on Nov 25, 2014 14:13:05 GMT -5
it looks like you're the first person ever to notice the inconsistency I don't know how much weight it will hold ^^; Personally, I would just pose my petz in P4. When showing OB Dali's these days, the competition is VERY high, especially at TPA (The Petz Association). It is VERY common to see *several* absolutely perfect Dali poses in one show. In 10 years of showing Petz, I've never seen a pose perfected like the OB Dali pose has been. It has been perfected to the pixel. And a lot of the time, when judges are in the situation where they have several perfect poses (which, mind you, is often), they will look for the tiniest things possible to help them make their judging choices. If they do not know about the ankle alignment in D5 Dali's being different, they may very well chuck the D5 pose out altogether because more of the front heel is showing. Yes, it is a very small difference. But for those who have spent a decent amount of time showing and judging the OB Dali (or OBs in general), they know that the smallest amount of pixels in today's competition could be the difference between BIS and not placing at all. I agree with this. It is VERY easy to get a 100% perfect pose out of a dali. And it does come down to counting pixels most of the time. So if they pose with more ankle in P5, then P5 players are definitely at a disadvantage. But... I don't know if the ankle issue is exclusive to P5. At least, out of the 20-something dalis I posed a couple days ago, I don't think I managed to get a single pose with as clean an ankle as the two P4 examples you provided. And I pose in P4. These dogz, posed in P4, have a very obvious ankle protrusion in the hind legs imo: This one is just bumpy all around lol: Smoother maybe?:
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Post by DemonDog on Nov 26, 2014 11:50:27 GMT -5
Very interesting. I see what you are saying. I think the only way the test this theory out extensively is to take a dozen or so Dali's from different bloodlines and pose them all in both P4 and P5 and see what the results have to show us. I may attempt it this weekend. The only kink in my plan is, I want a wide variety of Dals, 2 low gen, 2 high gen, 2 high gen tree trimmed, 2 in-bred and 2 non in bred to rule out other possibilities. All need to be purebred. And I need 2 blues, 2 greys, 2 white, 2 tan, 2 brown, 2 dust, 2 cream and 2 black. As I only have a few P4 Dals, that means A LOT of breeding. I think I may go over to petz talk and make a thread asking for volunteers...
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