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Post by CatCreature on May 18, 2022 21:29:22 GMT -5
So, a few years ago, I was able to get in touch with the owner of the PDH site, asking about her Red Bandana clothing item. I asked if I could maybe make some more versions of it, using different colors or textures because I absolutely LOVED it and would love more variations. She gave me permission, and I've had fun adding some new ones every so often. But as time went on, people naturally started asking where I was getting them, and if I could share. And honestly...I didn't know if I could. So I emailed the owner again and asked if I could share them with a few friends. But she never answered, and I never heard from her again. I have quite a few now, and I feel bad that I'm the only one who gets to have fun with them. I'd -like- to share them with people. I've been considering putting them up for download on my site, with full credit to the owner of PDH...but I don't know if that would be frowned on, since I don't have permission, as I've been unable to reach her. So I wanted to ask. Firstly, has anybody been in touch with her in recent years? Would anybody know where I could reach her, aside from the emails on the site? I may give the emails another try and see if they work. (There seem to be two on the site.) Edit: I just sent out two emails, since I found two emails on the site, to try and reach her to ask for permission. The questions on this thread really only remain if she never responds. Hopefully we get a response so we don't have to guess!Secondly, if I absolutely cannot find a way to reach her, and she's simply gone...what are your thoughts on me sharing the variations I made on my site? Is that wrong, or would you consider it okay if I give credit to her? (Which I will!) The only rule I can find is to not put up the clothing items she made for download elsewhere...should I assume this means, do not put even these different versions up, or just the exact ones she made? I don't know...what do you suggest? I don't want to step on any toes...I just want to share with people. xD Some examples of varied bandanas I've made:
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Post by zan on May 19, 2022 0:20:29 GMT -5
Since you got permission to modify them, it's not a stretch to imagine that it would be okay to share them (with credit, as you've said). Obviously it'd be best to ask about that specifically, but if someone has left the petz community and isn't able to be contacted, I personally think it'd be okay to share these items. Maybe give it a little bit of time first to see if they respond to either of those emails, just in case.
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Post by CatCreature on May 19, 2022 5:35:40 GMT -5
That's about where I'm at! I just wanted to make sure that wasn't wrong of me xD Unless I suddenly get a surge of people who are very against it, this may be what I'll do!
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Post by north on May 19, 2022 6:01:08 GMT -5
I think zan is right that if she was okay with you making new versions of it then it wouldn't be much of a leap to think she'd be okay with you sharing your edited ones with appropriate credit.
It's sort of a tough question. Because on one hand, it is something that took someone a long while to create and you wouldn't want to share things people might not want shared. But on the other hand, sharing files people have made is really a big part of the petz online space. If no one ever did that, so many files and resources from back in the day/from creators who have left/sites that have gone down would be completely lost to the void.
But perhaps maybe another option is just keeping it small and sharing with some people privately, rather than hosting them for public download?
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Post by Bunni on May 19, 2022 6:48:17 GMT -5
I'm going to take the opposite stance here unfortunately. I checked out the PDH site, and noticed that she doesn't have a 'hexing base' freely available for these bandanas. It appears that she just has a red one that she hexed, and she stated that, "All these "clothez" are made by me. Don't put these up for download anywhere."
So it seems that she just gave permission solely to you to edit this particular clothing piece. I personally wouldn't put any of them up for download without explicit permission from her first. If she had a hexing base for it available, then I'd say yes, go ahead and remember to give credit.
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Post by Audaxity on May 19, 2022 9:30:36 GMT -5
I’m having a similar dilemma with downloadable pets I have that no longer seem available, while struggling to get into contact with the creator. And honestly, I lean toward it being okay, and Sable hit the nail on the head for why I feel this way. As sad as it is, many people have left the PC over time. Sometimes just for a hiatus, but other times… they never come back. I’ve tried to weigh the best and worse case scenarios for each option.
If you share, you risk the person possibly coming back to the community at some point, and maybe being upset that you shared your edits without explicit permission. However, you also give the existing community new items, and the PC has always heavily revolved around the sharing of creations balanced with a certain degree of exclusivity.
if you don’t share, you’ve possibly respected someone’s wishes, without even knowing if the person cares about the PC anymore, period, or if those are actually their wishes. However, the existing PC is absolutely denied your edits as a result, and you’ll likely continue to be asked for the foreseeable future.
The foremost option has potential risk, but guaranteed reward. The latter maybe has a reward, but guaranteed downsides. I feel the consensus when I first joined the community the priority seemed to lean towards “keep items from being lost,” with the understanding we’d take the items down if the person ever returned and took umbrage with sharing it. Maybe that’s changed, but I’m not sure how I’d feel if the community started leaning harder into exclusivity, as I’ve always believed the current balance to be pretty close to ideal.
It’s your decision, ultimately. As I hope I got across on that (unnecessary and rambly probably) essay above, I don’t see it as harmful. Nor do I think anyone could reasonably accuse you of acting in bad faith. It’s kind of like lost media/abandonware. Technically involves piracy, but otherwise the material could easily be lost forever. The spirit of the law, sometimes, is more important than the letter.
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Post by Thor on May 19, 2022 10:28:47 GMT -5
I like to think of this in terms of real life. There does exist things that do eventually go into public domain when no family/friends are around to make a say on their behalf. (Although, usually the artist is deceased and the timeframe is longer) I personally don't think you'd be in the wrong to release the file, but there are a few people who don't think it's okay to do this-- so I do understand if you don't release the file for this worry. Aka whatever you decide you always have my support, friend :) To add on to Audaxity , as I've gotten older, I feel more and more into sharing. I was very restrictive and secretive as a kid (not with petz but with other things I create) but now I learned that open source is beautiful-- having people see your code and help you is amazing. I like to think this feeling is something that happens when people get older-- seeing their work shared because life's too short to just be restrictive. So maybe this person would just be happy to see their work shared and being relevant and talked about! (I can't speak for this person tho...everyone experiences life differently) But another thought-- who is hosting that site still???
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Post by Megan@Xoops ❄️ on May 19, 2022 12:19:45 GMT -5
I would agree with those that have said it's ok. I have converted files someone else made and put them on my site for download without explicit permission because the individual was no longer in the community. I did eventually get in touch with them and they were totally fine with it, but if they weren't I absolutely would have taken the files down.
I think in a community like this where people literally disappear never to be seen or heard from again, and in a community that has always been about creating content for free, I really don't think its that big of an issue to do something like this if you are unable to get in touch with the creator. The fact that you were also given explicit permission to create more variations of the bandana, I can't imagine it would be much of a stretch that they would also allow you to share those files (with credit ofc).
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Post by CatCreature on May 19, 2022 18:24:11 GMT -5
I'm still half asleep, so hopefully I don't make mistakes here!
I feel like I fall somewhere in the middle, leaning a little more on what the majority are saying here. It does feel wrong to share out files that other people have made, and even said not to, without their permission. But at the same time...at some point in the PC...everyone seems to vanish, and it's sad to see things vanish with them because of that rule. Keeping things alive by sharing them anyway, with the proper credit, seems fair enough as it's basically doing what was originally intended...sharing that item with the world.
But then again, that's not quite what I'm doing here. I guess taking someone else's item and making my own versions of it, and uploading those without permission...that IS kind of the thing people don't like, most of the time. It might actually be best I don't make these public without permission.
I doubt I'm going to get in touch with them, since my last email a few years ago never got answered. I could be wrong, but I don't think they'd mind...I notice most, if not all, people who have been missing from the PC for many, many years...when finally contacted, their response tends to contradict their rules and is something like "I haven't touched the game in 20+ years, I don't really care what you do." But I probably shouldn't assume everyone is going to be like that.
So, I may never get an answer. But maybe it's best to just not upload these.
Thank you guys for the answers though!! ^^
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Post by north on May 19, 2022 23:43:52 GMT -5
At the end of the day, it's up to you and doing what you feel most comfortable doing, no sense making yourself stressed about it if you really aren't sure. It would have been neat to have such cool bandanas, but we can appreciate them in your petz pics when you share those
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Post by zan on May 20, 2022 3:11:16 GMT -5
It doesn't sound like you'll get a reply to those emails, but I'll cross my fingers in any case. Maybe at some point someone will make a bandanna hexing base that can be modified and publically shared. I do like the look of some of the colours you've made but I understand your dilemma and I don't think there's a simple answer.
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Post by Bunni on May 20, 2022 7:14:35 GMT -5
It doesn't sound like you'll get a reply to those emails, but I'll cross my fingers in any case. Maybe at some point someone will make a bandanna hexing base that can be modified and publically shared. I do like the look of some of the colours you've made but I understand your dilemma and I don't think there's a simple answer. amanda has a bandana hexing base available on Cargo ^^ cargo-petz.neocities.org/
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Post by zan on May 20, 2022 8:34:05 GMT -5
Oh thanks Bunni , that's good to know!
CatCreature if you feel inclined (I know it's more work so obviously you don't have to) you could always use the Cargo base to make colour variations of bandanas that you can share without worries! I know I'd use them on my petz.
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Post by CatCreature on May 20, 2022 13:14:11 GMT -5
It would be more work, especially since I also fuss over the ID numbers to get things to line up in my closet properly xD So it might not happen right away...but I might put the textures I've used onto some of those to release sometime! ^^ Not a bad idea!!
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silverfish
Petz Groomer
Posts: 169
Petz Versions: 4
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Post by silverfish on Jun 15, 2022 10:24:02 GMT -5
I’m having a similar dilemma with downloadable pets I have that no longer seem available, while struggling to get into contact with the creator. And honestly, I lean toward it being okay, and Sable hit the nail on the head for why I feel this way. As sad as it is, many people have left the PC over time. Sometimes just for a hiatus, but other times… they never come back. I’ve tried to weigh the best and worse case scenarios for each option. If you share, you risk the person possibly coming back to the community at some point, and maybe being upset that you shared your edits without explicit permission. However, you also give the existing community new items, and the PC has always heavily revolved around the sharing of creations balanced with a certain degree of exclusivity. if you don’t share, you’ve possibly respected someone’s wishes, without even knowing if the person cares about the PC anymore, period, or if those are actually their wishes. However, the existing PC is absolutely denied your edits as a result, and you’ll likely continue to be asked for the foreseeable future. The foremost option has potential risk, but guaranteed reward. The latter maybe has a reward, but guaranteed downsides. I feel the consensus when I first joined the community the priority seemed to lean towards “keep items from being lost,” with the understanding we’d take the items down if the person ever returned and took umbrage with sharing it. Maybe that’s changed, but I’m not sure how I’d feel if the community started leaning harder into exclusivity, as I’ve always believed the current balance to be pretty close to ideal. It’s your decision, ultimately. As I hope I got across on that (unnecessary and rambly probably) essay above, I don’t see it as harmful. Nor do I think anyone could reasonably accuse you of acting in bad faith. It’s kind of like lost media/abandonware. Technically involves piracy, but otherwise the material could easily be lost forever. The spirit of the law, sometimes, is more important than the letter. I think this is more or less resolved at this point but just wanted to point out that hosting files that were previously available to download but no longer are has never been considered taboo or inappropriate. The creator clearly intended for people to have access to such files or they would not have been up for download. We have large-scale projects dedicated to 'saving' downloads that would otherwise be lost to the void. It's the editing part that makes things complicated!
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