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Post by meowlissa on Aug 31, 2021 23:18:06 GMT -5
There have been a couple of different mousing type shows in the past but as far as I know, no show-based titles. The Duke's group mousing titling system is based on the number of mice caught, not individual shows. I propose the following standard for mousing shows, inspired by Salem's Frisbee proposal: POINTSas with regular shows there will be 5 placements, but slightly different to reflect the show type. 1st - 5 pts 2nd - 4 pts 3rd - 3 pts 4th - 2 pts HM - 1 pt Titles- MC/MD (Mousing Cat or Dog) at 10 pts
- DM (Distinguished Mouser) at 20 pts
- MDX (Mouser of Excellence) at 30pts
Pictures should show the pet catching a mouse or showing off a mouse they caught. Entrants are judged by enthusiasm and quality of the picture.
Some "Good examples"
Some less good examples:
Just a bit awkward, not the highest quality way to show off his hunting skills since he looks a bit silly due to the eyes
This dog is not really paying attention and you can't see the mouse very well
This cat has become best friends with the mouse and they are having a costume party OK this one is a joke that's not a real mouse
Training Tips
- You can "bait" the mice out with toys that are high in "tastiness". I always use a stick because the mice can't carry it away and the petz can't eat it
- It's helpful to wait for the mice to come out and then bring the pet out
- It may help to catch the mouse yourself and show it to the pet
Let me know your thoughts!
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Post by Amanda on Sept 1, 2021 0:19:05 GMT -5
I like these titles you came up with, MDX sounds like it'll be so sophisticated at the end of a showname
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noluckduck
Petz Walker
I'm back to work! Way less active but still here!
Posts: 53
Petz Versions: 4
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Post by noluckduck on Sept 1, 2021 0:20:19 GMT -5
Oh I am all for cruelty to mice
This sounds like a fun idea! I'm not super into pose shows but stuff like this feels more up my alley (cat)! I love it when Petz do cute Petzy things and I'd to see more of that special charm in shows!
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Post by zan on Sept 1, 2021 8:29:29 GMT -5
Oooh I like this idea! Glad it's something that dogz can participate in too; I'd certainly give it a try!
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Post by Aiyana on Sept 1, 2021 11:11:11 GMT -5
I love this!
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Post by RebeccaMonkey on Sept 7, 2021 10:26:43 GMT -5
I love this idea! I love the mice in game so it's cool to see them being used in a show.
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Post by Amanda on Sept 16, 2021 12:59:35 GMT -5
Ok 3 things: 1) I think these shows should also include hunting/stalking as a pose option: Shade suggested mousing shows in Salem's original thread on Whiskerwick in July2) It didn't occur to me to add this here until now, but what does everyone think about there being different shows and titles for catz and dogz (with everything else being the same): Mousing for catz and Barn Hunt for dogz? When I opened my show on DG in July I had been looking at Barn Hunt trials as a way to tie it into how there are rat/pest hunting dog breeds who also do this, rather than just lumping them in in an otherwise catz-themed show type. These could be equivalent Barn Hunt titles for dogz - RATD (Barn Hunt Dog) at 10 pts RATM (Barn Hunt Master) at 20 pts RATCh (Barn Hunt Champion) at 30pts (I like that AKC uses RAT in the titles instead of any acronyms which make sense, I think it's funny) 3) It looks like Amy already has AM/Advanced Mouser as one of the mousing titles on Duke's Group, I think we should probably change that middle one to make it different, just so it isn't an exact duplicate/doesn't disregard her mousing show type? - Maybe MM (Mousing Master) which also kind of follows the akc barn hunt naming scheme?
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Post by lobb on Sept 16, 2021 17:16:09 GMT -5
I completely disagree with this one, to be honest. Sometimes my pets do the "hunting" pose but end up not catching the mouse... and the ones who are bad at it fail a lot. I think part of the fun/challenge of this show type is getting a picture of your pet catching the mouse or interacting with it (playing, carrying, etc.) without letting it go. I think a hunting/stalking pose would just make it way less challenging and it would be a bit too "indirect". But that's just my opinion, I don't know what others think.
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Post by Amanda on Sept 16, 2021 17:34:42 GMT -5
I completely disagree with this one, to be honest. Sometimes my pets do the "hunting" pose but end up not catching the mouse... and the ones who are bad at it fail a lot. I think part of the fun/challenge of this show type is getting a picture of your pet catching the mouse or interacting with it (playing, carrying, etc.) without letting it go. I think a hunting/stalking pose would just make it way less challenging and it would be a bit too "indirect". But that's just my opinion, I don't know what others think. It's already subjective so you could just not place ones you don't like couldn't you? When I think of mouse hunting the hunting part is definitely part of it- considering Shade and I both included it in our concepts separately, and stalking poses are used in quite a few PKC shows/premiers to show hunting, I don't think it's such a wrong pose for the concept of a mousing show.
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Post by lobb on Sept 16, 2021 17:46:18 GMT -5
I completely disagree with this one, to be honest. Sometimes my pets do the "hunting" pose but end up not catching the mouse... and the ones who are bad at it fail a lot. I think part of the fun/challenge of this show type is getting a picture of your pet catching the mouse or interacting with it (playing, carrying, etc.) without letting it go. I think a hunting/stalking pose would just make it way less challenging and it would be a bit too "indirect". But that's just my opinion, I don't know what others think. It's already subjective so you could just not place ones you don't like couldn't you? When I think of mouse hunting the hunting part is definitely part of it- considering Shade and I both included it in our concepts separately, and stalking poses are used in quite a few PKC shows/premiers to show hunting, I don't think it's such a wrong pose for the concept of a mousing show. That's a good point about subjectivity, though people have also said (in other threads) that too much subjectivity in non-pose shows puts them off. Adding judging for stalking poses and taking their difference from catching poses into account would probably only make that a bigger issue. (Also, when judging shows like this, I wouldn't feel comfortable allowing something only to then place it lower, that would seem unfair to me.)
I don't think it's really relevant that both you and Shade thought of including those poses, by the same token, Amanda proposed catching poses and I prefer catching poses. These are very low numbers. I think what would be helpful would be more feedback and discussion from more community members. I may disagree with the inclusion of those poses but like I said, I don't know what other people think, and hearing more opinions would be good.
As to PKC shows... I honestly have never set foot on PKC but even their standards for regular shows seem extremely different from the ones used elsewhere, so I don't think that show types *need* to follow what PKC does.
Please note that it's not my intention to be rude or start anything. I just responded to your suggestion and just happen to disagree, much like I hope other people who agree/disagree will chime in if they've got any thoughts, especially with these being significant changes after multiple shows have already been held.
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Post by Amanda on Sept 16, 2021 20:19:04 GMT -5
I don't think it's really relevant that both you and Shade thought of including those poses, by the same token, Amanda proposed catching poses and I prefer catching poses. These are very low numbers. what? I'm sorry I don't understand this part at all. I mentioned pkc shows to show that there is some precedent for using the stalking/hunting pose to show a pet is a good mouser/hunter. As far as making "significant changes after multiple shows have been held" I thought this was a proposal and it has only been two weeks.
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Post by zan on Sept 17, 2021 3:45:55 GMT -5
Okay since I've held/participated in a few Mousing shows I'm gonna jump in!
I know I previously said I prefer shows that are more standardised in terms of the judging process (pose show obsession coming through, lol) but I've actually been having a place taking pictures for and entering Mousing shows, and what I've ended up doing has been saving several different pics and rotating which ones I enter - partly so I can see what places under different judges and partly because it's fun and (hopefully) displays my pet's hunting prowess. So with that out of the way, I actually think the subjectivity of Mousing shows is an intrinsic part of why they are so fun! What forms a great shot to me for one pet may not work as well for another, and I love that. I may have preferences, as I'm sure all judges do, but it's not as simple as 'x-type pic always places highest in my shows'. I feel like (for me, anyway) the criteria for success are more individualistic than Frisbee or Agility etc.
So with that explained, I think there's room to include the hunting/stalking poses as an option; it's part of the process and can accurately convey the pet's focus and instinct, which is something I've been looking for already in some cases, depending on what the pet is doing. Even as they are right now, Mousing shows aren't solely about the moment of the 'catch'; I have entered and placed pictures with pets playing with mice after having caught them. The fact that you can't tell whether that particular hunting/stalking behaviour resulted in a successful catch isn't a problem in my opinion, as it could be judged purely on how well it represents that particular stage of the mouse hunt. Besides, it's not like seeing a pet with a mouse means they actually caught it, either - just earlier this morning, I was training a dog to hunt by holding up a mouse for him to see, and he grabbed it from me and ran off with it, the sneaky cheat...
I feel like Mousing shows are a bit of a 'work in progress' still and the criteria (and my own thoughts on judging them!) are not set in stone yet. One of the best ways to figure it all out is to host, judge and enter shows, and discuss them like we are doing here.
If there's a particular type of pose or picture you feel doesn't capture the essence of the hunt as well, I can see a few options for dealing with that:
1. simply place them lower (the same thing happens with Frisbee shows; some judges like a uniform calm expression and a sideways alignment, others like a more dynamic pose, and even in pose shows you'll notice some judges always place certain things higher or lower, and that's okay!). I can't be the only one who occasionally enters different pics for different judges in recognition of their subjective preferences, and that's certainly what I'd do here if I noticed a trend.
2. Specify in your show's title that you want 'catch' pics/direct interaction with the mouse in your shows. This is similar to how you can have Trick or Agility shows open to specific tricks/tasks only.
3. Ask for two pics, one to show hunt/stalk and one to show the pet with a mouse, representing a successful catch. It seems like a lot of people are taking multiple pics anyway, so this may work.
4. Mention in your show rules that you prefer pictures that show the pet with the mouse. This will help people know what to aim for when entering your shows, and could alleviate any feelings of guilt over accepting pictures that you are unlikely to award the top placements to. It also keeps the show open to someone who may only have one pic to enter and doesn't feel like taking more; in EBW shows they will stille get a point for placing HM.
Moving on from that (though happy to discuss it more!), I agree that avoiding conflict with existing titles on Duke's Group or elsewhere is a good idea. I've never heard of the real life Barn Hunt event until now, but I like those titles!
I'm still personally happy to judge catz and dogz in the same shows together (since I'm looking at what I like about the individual pet's picture, rather than comparing them all to one standard), but if these shows continue to be popular I can see the case for splitting them up. Does anyone have strong preferences one way or another on this?
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Post by lobb on Sept 17, 2021 10:17:47 GMT -5
I don't think it's really relevant that both you and Shade thought of including those poses, by the same token, Amanda proposed catching poses and I prefer catching poses. These are very low numbers. what? I'm sorry I don't understand this part at all. I mentioned pkc shows to show that there is some precedent for using the stalking/hunting pose to show a pet is a good mouser/hunter. As far as making "significant changes after multiple shows have been held" I thought this was a proposal and it has only been two weeks. My point was that your argument that you and Shade had come up with the idea being reason enough to change it doesn't hold much water because, like I said, if this change is going to be made, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible. I understand why you mentioned PKC shows, I only said that we don't *have* to adhere strictly to them (just like we don't in other ways). It is a proposal and there's only been two weeks, and I think it's ok to still change things -- but since people have participated and held shows, it would probably be best to have more voices chiming in. I personally don't agree but if enough people want that change, that's ok by me. That's democracy, after all.
Maybe it's just me, but your tone is coming across kind of off. You suggested changes and I said I disagreed with one and why. I'm not fighting you on this, I just added my two cents based on my personal preference (just like you did).
I'm still personally happy to judge catz and dogz in the same shows together (since I'm looking at what I like about the individual pet's picture, rather than comparing them all to one standard), but if these shows continue to be popular I can see the case for splitting them up. Does anyone have strong preferences one way or another on this?
You know, you made some good points about stalking/hunting being included, like those poses being judged on the focus. I still think it's pretty different from the pet interacting with the mouse but I'm more on the fence now. I don't have any strong preferences about separate mousing shows. On the one hand, I think cats and dogs have different interactions and it could be easier to take that into account if they're split up. On the other hand, people tend to enter these shows more often with cats, so dog shows would end up lagging behind. (Like frisbee shows. Separate frisbee shows for cats seem/seemed like a nice option since their poses and interactions are less broad than dogs, but cats-only frisbee shows seem to be less active.)
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Post by Amanda on Sept 17, 2021 10:48:59 GMT -5
I'm still personally happy to judge catz and dogz in the same shows together (since I'm looking at what I like about the individual pet's picture, rather than comparing them all to one standard), but if these shows continue to be popular I can see the case for splitting them up. Does anyone have strong preferences one way or another on this? Oh I wasn't thinking that all shows would have to be split! (if that suggestion is taken) You could still judge both together in just a mousing show just as it is now. But a person Could split them into a Mousing and a Barn Hunt show if you wanted to judge separately like I'm doing, and the main thing would be in the different titles - a dog would be a barn hunter instead of a mouser :)
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Post by zan on Sept 17, 2021 11:59:15 GMT -5
Amanda I think we're thinking along the same lines then; I do like the idea of opening separate shows for dogz and catz as it gives people a chance to show both at the same time (and I'm finally training some dogz in mousing now) but it's good to have mixed shows as an option too. Like lobb said, it could be that the popularity for dogz isn't there (like my sadly languishing catz frisbee shows, haha) but who knows? Maybe with shows just for dogz it'll go the other way and encourage more people to enter?
Is everyone okay with the proposed title changes suggested earlier, to avoid conflict with existing titles and be species-specific? If so it might be worth meowlissa editing the titles in the first post here?
For the stalking/hunting pics, maybe it's best just left to the discretion of the show host as to whether they should be included, unless you think there should be a firm/universal decision on the matter? I'm planning on opening a couple more shows soon but wanted to wait to see what the outcome of the discussion here was.
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